Survey Says: Requesting the Right Land Survey to Close Your Next Project Efficiently
Civic Minds Podcast Episode #5
In this episode of Civic Minds, Environmental Design Group Director of Surveying, Dennis Stoffer, PE, PS, joins host Laura Hengle to discuss the importance of selecting the right land survey for a project. Drawing on more than 40 years of experience in land surveying, Dennis explains why outdated surveys may no longer be accurate and how choosing the appropriate land surveying services can help avoid unnecessary costs and project delays.
Throughout the conversation, he breaks down different types of surveys, including boundary surveys, topographic mapping services, ALTA surveys, and bathymetric mapping services, explaining when each is needed and what information they provide. From understanding property boundaries to exploring advancements in surveying technology, this episode offers practical insights for property owners, developers, and project teams looking to make informed surveying decisions.
Civic Minds Podcast Episode #5 Transcript
Laura Hengle:
Welcome to Civic Minds, a podcast by Environmental Design Group, highlighting civil engineering, planning, and design. I’m your host, Laura Hengel. I’m so happy to welcome EDG’s Director of Surveying, Dennis Stoffer, to the podcast today.
As a registered engineer and licensed surveyor with more than 40 years in the industry, Dennis will share insights into the importance of not only requesting a survey, but requesting the right survey for a project. Welcome, Dennis.
Dennis Stoffer:
Well, thank you, Laura.
Laura:
We’re going to get some real softball questions just to kind of start us off here. But just because surveying is sort of, you and I talk about this a lot, it’s like sort of a dying profession, unfortunately. We need more people to go into it. But what led you into a career in land surveying?
Dennis:
Well, I actually just kind of happened into it, actually. I went to work in college with a local land surveying and civil engineering firm. And my role at that time was drafting the plans for the designers and the engineers for whatever project they were working on.
And one day they needed help on the survey crew. So, they said, “will you go out?” And I did. And it took off from there.
Laura:
You’re just like, this seems to be something for me.
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
Before I came to Environmental Design Group, I worked for a company that focused on surveying. And I know one of the things that a lot of people would say is, “what do I need a survey for? I have an old one. It’s from 20 years ago, but nothing’s changed.” So, I think one of the misnomers is that if you have a survey once, it’ll serve you for the rest of your life or the property’s life. But let’s explain why that’s not really the case.
Dennis:
Well, the survey was good at the time it was prepared by a licensed surveyor. But over time, things change. People don’t necessarily remember where their property lines are. They think they know where they are. Technology has changed as to how you can actually determine the property lines.
Sometimes now it’s a lot more accurate measurement. I like to say, you know, when I first started surveying, I was pulling a steel tape measure through the woods.
Laura:
Goodness. It’s very different now.
Dennis:
It’s very different now, as is your measurements.
Laura:
Yes.
Dennis:
I have a client right now, just as an example. He had a deed for his property, kind of knew where the property lines were, but we really couldn’t even find a survey that actually was for his property only.
And he thought he was getting an encroachment from a neighbor onto his property. So, he wanted to have the boundary survey done to determine where those property lines are so him and the neighbor could know that’s where it is.
Laura:
Yeah. Well, we had a property recently surveyed, and I was talking about this as well. It took them about three days because all the pins were so old. They couldn’t find them. They were looking everywhere. They were like, “well, we’re going to have to go somewhere else to get a new reference point.” And it was because ownership around our property had changed so much. Improvements around our property had changed so much.
So yeah, the things that had been seen on this survey that I think was maybe 40 or 50 years old were definitely different than what we’re seeing today. So again, I think that people need to realize that just because you have a piece of paper that looks like a survey, it doesn’t mean it’s accurate for what they’re seeing today.
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
Yeah. So, surveys are not a one-size-fits-all. There’s a lot of difference in what’s depicted on the survey. There’s a lot of cost disparity depending on what type of survey is requested.
So, it’s always kind of a good idea, from what I understand, to know exactly what the use of the survey is going to be so that whenever you go to a surveyor to make a request, that you’re requesting the right thing. You’re not requesting necessarily more than you need because then you’re going to be paying money that you don’t need to spend, or less because then you’re going to have to go back to the drawing board and get something again.
So, let’s take a few minutes and break down the importance of ordering the right survey. And then after that, we’ll get into what some of these right surveys are. So, what would you say if someone came to you and said, “I need an ALTA survey,” but then you find out all they’re doing is trying to find the property line? Say, hey, maybe you need to step back because the cost differential on that could be…
Dennis:
Correct. You know, when somebody asks for a survey and all they say is, “Hey, I want a survey,” we need to have a discussion.
What do you want to achieve by the survey that I provide? What are you… What’s your end goal? What’s your use going to be for it? Is it a boundary survey? Is it a topography survey, an ALTA survey, or any of the above and beyond? Because cost differentials can and will range based on the property, regardless of the type of survey that’s needed. But the cost range can vary from $4,000 to $100,000, depending on what you need or beyond.
Laura:
Yeah, and it’s not just based on acreage. It’s what you… the amount of research and work involved in what they’re doing on the parcel of land.
Dennis:
Correct. I don’t price a survey based on acreage, I base it on the property and what kind of survey is really needed for the use that the client’s requesting.
Laura:
Yeah. And I think that’s not a common knowledge item. I think people are like, “Well, it’s a half acre.” You’re like, “Well, it’s a half acre. It’s this and this and this, and there’s a bunch of easement rights, and there’s all these things going on”. So…
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
Yes. So, let’s just kind of step through some of those. So, if someone calls and they just need to know what their property boundaries are, what are they going to get for like a basic boundary survey?
Dennis:
So, for a basic boundary survey, they’re going to get a determination of all of their property lines, because we will get a request where, “Can’t you just mark this one property line for me so I can put up a fence?” No, I can’t do that. I do have to survey the entire property to determine where the boundaries are so I can certify it.
Laura:
Yes.
Dennis:
I can’t do one property line. I have to do them all.
Laura:
Because these are based on like state requirements.
Dennis:
Correct. So, and for that, you would get a determination of the property boundaries and we will provide a property boundary survey showing the results of everything that we did, including all the property corner pins, if they’re there, and a certification on the drawing that, yes, we surveyed it, we certified it, and this is the boundary survey.
If any of the property corner pins are missing, then I am required to set new ones where I determine those corners to be. And that’s what you would get from a boundary survey.
Laura:
Okay. And what’s the current like pins? Is that underground steel pins? Is that what you’re looking for? I know, you know, old surveying didn’t have the same sort of pins as what we see today.
Dennis:
The old pins, you could find a lot of almost anything. You could find a fence post. You could find a pipe. You could find a rebar, a lead monument where they actually use lead centers in them. Their current requirement for Ohio is a 30-inch long, five-eighths inch minimum diameter rebar with a plastic cap. At our company, the plastic cap has the company name on it.
Laura:
Okay. So, you know who did the work.
Dennis:
Yes.
Laura:
So again, this goes back to why you need to get updated surveys, because the pins you have in there could have been a fence post that’s rotted and isn’t even there anymore. So, this is getting you something with more longevity, more accuracy.
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
Now, we can also talk about topographic surveys. Some people I know will ask for a boundary with a topo. Can they also just get a topographic survey without getting the boundary, or are those always as a pairing?
Dennis:
No, they could get a topo without a boundary if the boundary is not of importance to them for their particular use.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
But we could do a topographic survey without the boundary and use just record information, use their deed, for example, as what the boundary of the property is, and put that over top of the topo survey. But I can do it that way. Most of the time, I will get a boundary and topo survey.
Laura:
Okay. And for those listening, can you explain a little bit about what is shown on a topographic survey?
Dennis:
Topographic survey is really going out and locating everything that’s on the property, whether it’s a driveway, a house, a parking lot, an office building, utility boxes, manholes, catch basins, anything that we find on the property would be included in a topography survey, unless there’s some things the client’s not interested in. If they don’t care about the utilities, for example, then we wouldn’t necessarily pick those up, pick up vaults and catch basins and those kind of things. But most of the time, you’re going to get what’s situated on the property is going to be included in a topography survey. And if you want to include it, we would include elevation contours as well.
Laura:
And that would probably be used on a lot of development projects.
Dennis:
Yeah. That’s the request we usually get is going to be from either another engineer or an architect or someone who’s going to be designing a project for a property. And they’re going to be using that information in their design.
Laura:
Because they need to figure out drainage and all those type of things.
Dennis:
Drainage utility connections, ADA access if it’s a building, all of that information.
Laura:
Definitely something to consider. A lot of times we’ve got people bought this and the neighboring property and they have another piece here and another piece there. So, they may need either a property split or a consolidation. How does that process go?
Dennis:
So, a property split to start that off is we would do a boundary survey of the property. And they’re going to say they’re going to divide it into three parcels. And working with the client, we would determine how those three parcels laid out within the overall boundary of the property. Then create a property split map and legal descriptions for each parcel. And that would have to be approved by the local agencies and then recorded at the county recorder’s office to make those parcels of record.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
Now the flip side is a consolidation survey is same owner owns three parcels. They’re all contiguous. What we would do in that case is do an overall boundary survey of the three parcels and basically consolidate all those three parcels into the one overall boundary and have that recorded. So now, instead of owning three parcels, you own one, but it’s the same parcel you owned in three. It’s just in one.
An example of why is we have a client right now looking at, they own two parcels and they want to build a house. They want to build a house right where the property line dividing the two parcels is. That will not meet any kind of a zoning requirement. So, they need to consolidate in order to put the house where they want it.
Laura:
Because the setbacks and all that aren’t going to be there because you’re sitting on the property line.
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
Exactly. And so once that’s done, the consolidation or the splits, then that’s recorded. And then is that filed with the county?
Dennis:
Yes.
Laura:
Okay. So that’s where that goes. It’s not city. It’s county that it goes to.
Dennis:
Yeah. The ultimate recording authority is going to be the county recorder.
Laura:
Okay. Good to know. Well, another one that we can talk a little bit, because you brought up a little bit about utilities, is subsurface utility engineering services, which I’ve never heard referred to as S-U-E or SUE. I know that can be tricky because again, you’re talking underground. Is this for existing underground or if they want to install underground?
Dennis:
This is for existing underground.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
And there are four levels of a S-U-E. A level D is basically you obtain utility records from the different utility companies and create a map based on their maps.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
A level C is building on top of a level D. We will go out and survey it and then pick up anything that we could see that would indicate an underground utility, whether it’s a valve, a manhole, an electric box, whatever utility information we can find. And then taking the maps and what we find, create an overall map of where the utilities are.
Going further is a level B, which is something that we at our company would subcontract out because we don’t have the capability of doing it, but that’s actually going to ground penetrating radar.
Laura:
Oh, okay.
Dennis:
And the companies come out and basically, they sweep the area that you’re interested in looking for underground utilities. And then they would mark those that we could survey and create the map from that, which is a more accurate location.
Laura:
So, are companies that do that readily available to contract to do that? It seems like-
Dennis:
There are.
Laura:
… pretty specific equipment for that.
Dennis:
Yeah. We have a couple that we work with regularly, but there’s several out there.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
And then a level A, which I like to say they’re going to dig it up.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
Okay. It doesn’t go quite that far. They do what’s called potholing a lot of times, which they’re just probing into the ground looking for it to locate it that way rather than with the radar. But those are the four different levels of underground utility exploration.
Laura:
Which is very important to do because so often we hear about, oh, there was a problem because someone didn’t know there was a gas line there.
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
So, it’s good to keep an eye on where those things are.
Next, we’ll pivot to one that you and I have talked about a lot because the standards change every five years. It’s sort of like the Cadillac of surveys, which is the ALTA, the American Land Title Association survey. A lot of times people say, I need an ALTA. And you’ll say, I don’t know that you quite need an ALTA because you can explain to everyone now exactly what’s included in an ALTA and why sometimes that much work is not needed.
Dennis:
So, an ALTA survey, the standards for that are uniform across the United States. So, if I survey in any state in the country, it’s the same standard. And a base ALTA is basically a boundary and topographic survey with title information included.
We would get a title report from a title company and then any easements, restrictions, reservations that show up in that title report are included in a base, what I call a base ALTA. And I say base ALTA because there is a Table A to the ALTA standards and those are all optional items. The client can pick and choose which ones they want.
And it’s usually my first question is, all right, you want an ALTA, what do you want out of Table A? Because depending on which ones they pick will affect the price. Because they’re uniform across the country, there are a couple of items in table A that are included in Ohio because we have to also with the ALTA standard follow the state standard for a boundary survey.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
So, a couple of those items may not be required in other states, but they are in Ohio. So, I always know there’s a couple there that I’m going to do regardless.
Laura:
Which are those?
Dennis:
One of them is placing monuments at the property corners. I know that’s included in a boundary survey in Ohio. So, we’re going to be including that one regardless. If they don’t know what table A is, they probably don’t need an ALTA. But we’ll have that conversation, you know, what are you going to use this survey for? And then help them determine, do you need an ALTA? Do you need a boundary and topo? And give me a title report or somewhere in between, just really get with the client and determine what type of a survey they really need.
Laura:
Yeah. And I know historically from things that I’ve encountered, often if a property is transacting and there’s a lender, they’ll require the ALTA either way because they want to make sure that there’s no issues with title. They want to know if there’s any concerns with access that they don’t want to put money into acquiring this property and then find out later, oh, well, we can’t do that because someone has to get across that property to service the cell tower on the other side.
So…
Dennis:
Yeah. And that’s typically where the request is going to come from. It’s going to come from the client, but that’s because his title company or lender is pushing and saying, “No, we have to have this.”
Laura:
Yeah. They want to cross every T and dot every I.
Dennis:
And the certification for an ALTA only gets certified to the title company, the lender, and the borrower.
Laura:
Okay. Yeah. So, there’s, like you say, it’s a lot of regulation because it’s nationwide.
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
And I know some things that have been in table A have dipped out of that and gone into the standard requirements and then they’ve also extended table A and now they have write-ins for table A. So, they can customize it however, and you’re like, no, no, no, let’s walk it back.
Dennis:
Right. There were, in the 2021 standards, there were 19 items in table A, which had reduced down a couple. In the 2026 standards that just came out earlier this year, there’s now 20 items in Table A.
Laura:
Creeping back up.
Dennis:
So, it’s always changing. Not a lot, but there’s always little tweaks that they do every five years to the standards.
Laura:
Yeah. Just to keep on top of things. I know part of things that can be ordered in tandem with an ALTA survey is a flood certification survey. And again, I think these are sometimes more warranted in certain geographies of the country, but could you explain a little bit about what is shown if there’s a flood certification survey done?
Dennis:
If it’s a flood certification survey, what’s typically being requested is it’s for insurance purposes. You know, is a structure on a property in the flood zone or not? And so, we have to go out and do elevations around the structures, around the property, and make sure we’re on the same elevation datum as the flood map itself to make sure where on the property is the flood zone for that particular reason.
And then we can go another step further, if we determine that the structure is out of the flood zone, if it’s above the flood elevation, we can apply to FEMA to have that structure removed from the flood zone. Doesn’t always work. Can’t guarantee it, but we can make that.
Laura:
And you pull that data from FEMA sites?
Dennis:
Yes. Yeah. FEMA has all their flood maps online. And so, we just pull the current map for the property we’re interested in and make sure that…
Laura:
And then if you would ask for the structure to be removed from that, that’s because they want to be able to build there without any recourse. But is that going to be a downside if that’s ever removed, if there would be a flood that would affect the building?
Dennis:
No, so the flood… I mean, we have to say it’s above a 100-year floodplain. And then the owner would get a letter of map amendment for his insurance company saying based on these certification, this structure is removed from the flood zone.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
If they’re trying to build something new, then we’re just doing an elevation-based topography across the property to determine where is the flood zone line and build out of it is the recommendation.
Laura:
Okay. Well, and now we’re going to pivot to one that I have to say until I started here, I never heard of in my life, the bathymetric survey. I know that’s sort of a fun little technical one involving water.
Dennis:
Involving water, yeah.
Laura:
So, if you could explain a little bit about the bathymetric survey and what is involved in gathering the data to prepare that survey.
Dennis:
Yeah. So bathymetric survey is basically doing a survey of the bottom of a pond or a lake. You can’t do it from the surface because there’s water there and could be a deep and you don’t know for sure.
Laura:
Right.
Dennis:
So, in our company, we rent a piece of equipment that we can put our equipment on top of. It’s basically a remote-controlled boat.
Laura:
Okay.
Dennis:
And drive the boat across the pond back and forth.
Laura:
That’s a fun day at work, isn’t it?
Dennis:
Yeah.
Laura:
Video games at work.
Dennis:
But it’s sweeping the bottom of the pond as it goes across, gathering the elevations of the bottom. And from there we can generate a surface model that says this is the bottom of the pond. So, it’s four feet deep here, five feet deep here, whatever, however it is.
And a lot of requests we’re getting for those lately are ponds are starting to silt in. And they need to dredge it back out to the original design bottom of the pond. So, they need to know how much material is there for a contractor to determine how much it’s going to cost to have it all dredged back.
Laura:
To dredge it out and get it back to the…
Dennis:
To dredge it all back.
Laura:
I was going to ask a question like what would be the usage of a bathymetric survey? So that makes sense. I know that locally I go to Stan Hewitt a lot and the lagoon back there was really filling in and then they did a whole project to dredge that out. But then you start to see the creep coming back in too. So, there’s actually defined depths in all those locations if they’re going to go in and do a dredge project then.
Dennis:
Yeah. If they’re going to go in and do a dredge project. And I know that right now the water’s four feet deep and they need to be eight feet deep to get down to original bottom. They know they’ve got four feet of material to take out.
Laura:
So, it’s a fun day at work and then it gives a lot of valid information without someone having to put a scuba suit on.
Dennis:
Correct.
Laura:
It’s all good. So, there’s technology involved there, but there’s been a major evolution in technology as it relates to the survey industry. I mean, I would say even in the last 25 years, I don’t think I’m misquoting that date, we’ve got mobile LiDAR, drones, laser scanning, even the robotic total station, which is what we see people out there doing survey work with now rather than the three-man crew with the prism and the rod man and all the kind of things.
And I know that this is all for improvement of accuracy and data collection, which can also improve turnaround times. But are there any things that even though we’re leaning into technology more to pull the data and prepare the survey, is there anything that people should be aware of in these new technologies or like maybe we need to check and balance on this just because it’s not the save all way of doing things?
Dennis:
Not in the survey industry, I wouldn’t say. Where the check and balance really comes is in the office staff being able to analyze the data that’s collected. Because the technology is all about data collection. The improvements have all been how to collect the data, is it more accurate, those kind of things. And so having the trained staff in the office to analyze that data when it comes in from the surveyor in the field is where that real check and balance becomes.
Laura:
Okay, well that’s good to know. And I tell you, I’ve learned a lot more about a lot of different surveys today than I ever thought I would know. It makes me really want to go out in the field one day with the mathematics survey equipment maybe just, you know, see how that all works out.
But I think our listeners could probably differentiate a lot of things. You’ve had a lot of experience to share. There’s been a lot of nuggets that have been shared today that will help people understand the different types of surveys that are out there.
Really appreciate you joining us today. And I do hope that going forward, people understand that not all surveys are the same and that getting the right survey can really help a project close out. So, thanks for being with us today, Dennis.
Dennis:
Thanks for having me, Laura.